Stephen said his hair was big when blown out. but daaaaaamn. didn't know it was Badu big.

Badu in your stereo.
holla if you hear me, yo.

Wow. Rob, man that just sucks. I mean, I've been in J.J.'s before and I heard and seen how rude St. Louis people can be, but that's just nuts. You weren't doing anything mean to anyone and yet you got mauled by bears. How typically... midwestern.

I sure as hell wouldn't spend another dime in there. So J.J.'s is a leather bar? Huh? I didn't know that nor would I have guessed that, having experienced the place. I saw a bunch of lisping, hairy guys, most of which were wearing white sneakers. Maybe it was Robert Smith from the Cure night?

It's funny, talking about dress codes at gay bars. Here in Kansas City, we've got the Dixie Belle and since the twink bar closed down, they've invaded the place like a bunch of Queer As Folk cockroaches and made the place so very unwelcoming and totally not fun to go out anymore. On the opposite end of the spectrum, I've been thrown out of here for defending myself - whether I was in full rubber and getting my bunghole fingered by a Mulletman or duking it out with a drunk drag queen for being called a "Nazi" or making out with the guy in the bath.

I've been to the Cell Block in Chicago, only to be denied entry to the backroom because I wasn't in leather. After all, I'm just a skinhead and up until recently, my kind wasn't welcome back there in the dark. 10 years on, who knew that being a skinhead would be this year's new black (leather)?

Lame.

Compare and contrast this to cities in Europe, like Amsterdam or London, where every bar makes it a point of advertising theme nights and telling people at the door that they may be out of step for that night's festivities due to a dress code change or an event that may be going on.

Post your damn signs or put somebody at the door of your bar. That way you've covered your ass when you have to ask people to leave AND you solidify your commitment to a "dress code", without having to be pithy about every third Tuesday, under the new moon, during Black History Month, drag is allowed because relying on the "community knowing" through some miracle that St. Louis queers have attained a hive mind status is just plain retarded.

This way, you save Rob some cash, a car ride there, and the frustration of having to deal with assholes and the bar can maintain it's "butch" image and drink bad beer.

Tag I'm it! Tag I'm it!
Or should I say "Miss" it?

It seems Corbett and I agree on various points discussed above, yet not all.

#1 Who is Neely-bob? Do you mean Beetle Bob? He wasn't there. Do you mean Baton Bob? He was at the Ball, but not J.J.'s...I guess he has heard of the "butch dress only" dresscode

#2 Up the ante and we could have a bet.
#2.5 I think I can speak for both Rob and myself in regard to having a bad night out. We both have had too many fun as well as tragic stories involving going out and tom foolery. We know full well about alcohol and twits. There is a saying: "Instant asshole...just add alcohol." The contention lies in the fact that the straight folks loved the creative energy, while the gay folks ran us off from their "sacred community" of "butchness". Point blank. If you fail to understand this, well, there is nothing more I can say to aid in your understanding the issue...'nuff said.

#4 nod
# 4.5 Globalization?!?! What?! Huh? Have you been listening to too much NPR or Democracy Now? Stop listening to the liberal propaganda and start realizing and acting on their message. Even if it's in a local, grassroots kind-of-way. Yes, we went out, got accosted, kicked out. yada yada yada...BUT....as you wrongfully insinuate...we did not let that make us have a bad time, we had a fantastic nite out of costumed fun and laughter!!! The comments I made regarding your lack of vision, marijuana use, ethnic origin, and misconstrued surnames, was done out of sheer cattiness as well as a desire to harness the hilarity of this scandal and the comments we have shared.
In rregard to the comment about being oversensitive, I disagree and wish to leave it at that. We can agree to disagree. I feel Rob was wronged. They apologized. Done. Letting others know what happened isn't being over sensitive it's just plain ol' good PR.

As far as the HRC bumper sticker is concerned:
I think you need it a little more than me. Now, turn around and bend over...I know the perfect place for it.

As far as which is worse: a hypersensitive drag or an insecure butch? I don't know. Hell, I'm still too busy trying to figure out how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie pop!?!?

Hey Joe -
why are you using "Miss" as a term to belittle someone? no matter how gently ...

woops... forgot one thing Joe...

TAG.. you're it.

:-P

Dear Tasty Nipples Joe:

#1 Ahh.. I read it as Neely-bob took him.

#2) I dunno... I won't betcha fifty bucks though.. how bout a cocktail instead?

#2.5) Assaulting... bad... *note: on any given weekend you can find drunk belligerent twits at ANY bar. I don't work for the bar - so I can't tell you why things were handled the way they were, but it's out of character.

#3 *NOD*

#4) Clarification: I should have said "BUTCH DRAG" -... Example - I know some "lumberjack types" who when they open their mouth, three Prada™ bags fall out. On the other hand, I know a drag queen who chews tobacco and goes deer hunting.

#4.5) Hu? Stop globalizing... Rob went out... had a bad experience (i.e. got treated poorly).*that's a bad thing... that's it. It can happen to anyone... anywhere... anytime.. with or without a god damn frock on.

I'm not following how my opinion that this event has been blown out of proportion indicates my lack of sight, use of marijuana or ethic origin.

The only thing I'm emoting an "intolerance" toward is dramatics and misdirected angst. Here... Here's an HRC bumper-sticker.. now on your way.

(sigh) What's worse?

Hypersensitive over-reactionary "drag queens"

Or

Insecure "Butch-drag" gays who feel threatened by a guy in a dress.

'ya'll silly"

#5) they "were" fabulous.

Alright - I have to get my seeing eye dog out of the kennel and head to the dry cleaner to pick up my white sheet, (clan meeting tonight), and visit my drug dealer.

*smack*

Dearest Miss Corbet III, Identity Specialist at large,

Allow me to correct a few errors:

#1 I was Rob's escort. I am not a chaiman of the Saints and Sinners Ball. I am not on any committees.

#2 While a dress code is enforced in such bars as the Cellblock in Chicago ( a well known fact I might add), I bet $50 a drag queen in leather, latex, or a uniform would be admitted to the back rooms. I don't think they would have a problem. Granted, she might get a bunch of weird looks from the patrons, I doubt she would get assaulted. If she were to get assaulted, I bet according to bar policy, the assailants would be asked to leave...not the dragqueen.

#3 You are correct. Dress codes are not meant to cause a rift, but to keep out the "not-so-like-minded-folk". Let's be honest.

#4 Butch boys?? Come on now...we all know the favorite color of the majority of the clientele is celadon!?!? How many of those lumberjack looking men actually know how to chop down a tree or do an oil change? I've seen said nelly dragzilla smash insects with her bare hands.

The melodramtic "unraveling of our community is utter masturbation" comment you make lends me to think you just don't understand. Why the lack of tolerance (for utter creative fabulousness) by our gay brethren, while being accepted and encouraged by the straight folks? Can't you see the twisted discrimination? Are you blind or just stoned? Or are you just that much of a WASP?

#5 That isn't ruffled feathers making her hips look big...it's her set of underskirts.

-Joe

I find it absurd that someone can't be admitted to an establishment based on the style of their dress, especially when I've seen some things at JJ's that have made me wish I were literally blind, as opposed to the figurative blindness that seems to afflict the patrons and staff of the place. Contrary to what Mr. Corbett says, I do not think it "utter masturbation" to point out the glaring divisions in the gay community as it exists in St. Louis. To pass off the policy as marketing and brand identity is dismissive, and the tone of the comment doesn't help matters either. ("Mary"? Please.)

There is nothing innocent about ignorance.

PS: It's "clientele."

Rob,
As chair of the Saints and Sinners Ball, but more as a friend, I too was deeply offended by the events at JJ's Saturday night. Whether you self identify as being "in drag" Saturday night or not, your costume was IN-FUCKING-CREDIBLE, and that is exactly what I considered it to be, a costume. To have given so much effort in organizing and promoting the Ball with me, not to mention all that you do for the community, and have the evening end on such a sour note still leaves me questioning what the word "community" means in STL.

I plan on running for Mr. Missouri Leather in March, and while aware of what some people consider the Leather "Community" to be (just another form of drag), I know that it is more than just dressing up in leather, just as I know that for some "dressing in drag" is something more than just putting on women's clothes. In Leather, for some it is a spiritual path gaining transcendence through pain or deprivation, for others it is an expression of their true selves, one that they feel they cannot exhibit in their everyday lives. Female Impersonators, affectionately and not-so-affectionately known as drag queens, too have something to be gained by participating in their scene. Basically, we are all trying to find ourselves, to define and identify who we are. If we do that within the confines of one scene or another, so be it, but what everyone needs to realize is that one scene is no better than other, and we are all part something greater and it is that something which is our "community."

I wish there was someway I could make it up to you for how Saturday night ended. I wish we could find a way to stop fighting among ourselves and find support in each other. In answer to Mr. Corbett's comment about worrying about something more important like GWB, there is nothing that he can do to us as a "community" that we are not already doing to ourselves, from within, it is just easier to blame him because he is an idiot and we as gay people are supposed to be the smart, savvy, witty ones. We'll I do not feel smart, or savvy or witty, just kind of sick.

Neel

hey i disagree with all this BS-- i mean what right does someone have to say another "gay" person can not be dressed as they wish.... my recent trip to St louis was great.. and i had met someone who was a past performer and i never thought i would fall for someone who did "drag"... but it happened and im so glad it did... i am now in vegas and received this article and im ashamed to say i use to like JJs.. no more though...wont ever go there again and i will tell all my friends not to also.....so there goes the jjs tourist dollars...... bye for now

Dearest Princess of Melodrama,

Sorry to hear about Saturday night.

Shame on your escort, "The Chairman of The Saints and Sinners Ball", for not thinking about the bar's *drag policy..

Things like "dress codes" are created to maintain a consistency for existing (and to draw new) cliental interested in a specific "scene" / "environment". This is executed to a much more fanatical degree in larger cities like Chicago, New York, San Francisco. For example - to get into the back bar at the CellBlock in Chicago, you MUST be in *drag... (Leather Drag)...

These rules / guidelines are not put into place to deepen the rift between gay subcultures or mock charity as your rather dramatic rant would suggest.

To try and draw parallels between the butch-boys not wanting to play with the drag-queens and the unravelling of our community is utter masturbation. Focus your angst at things that are worthy - like George W.

Sounds like the evening was an exercise in poor judgment, good ole innocent ignorance, and a handful of cocktailed rude folks.

I will agree with you that an official post wouldn't hurt.

Now de-ruffle your feathers... Mary... it makes your hips look big.

James Corbett III
Corporate Identity Specialist
*JJ's is my client.

Dearest Princess of Darkness,

I spoke with a manager from J. J.'s named Jeff. Having been there for the scandal, I too had many of the same questions and made similar points to Jeff. I can answer some of your questions. Jeff explained to me that J. J.'s only allows crossdressing on certain occasions, or with special permission. He told me he feels the presence of drag queens would scare off the leathermen. I told him you weren't a drag queen. It was a costume. I told him you didn't have fake tits. He said if he were there that night you would have been allowed to stay, and he would have made sure you weren't harassed. He also apologized for the incident and welcomed you back to the bar. Here are some of the answers you seek:

I didn't ask J. J.'s definition of drag. Jeff told me a patron's state ID must state the gender of their physical dress.

Members of the transgender community are welcome if their state ID matches their exterior gender. I assume if they are in the early stages of transitioning they are not welcome without special permission. Jeff told me of a trangendered individual who frequently comes to events hosted by J. J.'s. Her ID says female, even though she hasn't fully transitioned, she is welcome.

I didn't ask about butch dykes in men's clothing...I didn't think of it.

Jeff told me the crossdressing ban was lifted for the arrival of the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence. He told me he would have lifted the ban for you too if he were there.

I don't know why the dress code isn't posted at the door.

When I asked why you were let in he told me the doorguy was bussing glasses. Jeff also said the doorguy on Saturday was a temp as the usual doorman wasn't there that night. Apparantly the manager on duty reversed the decision and told the doorguy you were welcome, but we had left the bar at that point.

I too brought up similar points of how I felt the bar was intolerant. I assumed, being a leather bar in the new millennium, J.J.'s was the kind of bar one could go have a drink in a safe sexual space. A space where you didn't have to worry about a patron finding you weird if you are a man who wants to get tied up and humiliated by another man, get your boots shined by a tongue, or have a fist shoved up your ass...sex acts the general public often finds bizarre. If the patrons of a leather/bear bar can tolerate and endorse certain sorts sexual deviance why discriminate against others. There are plenty of perverts out there who enjoy cross dressing as some from of sexual play. Why deny the heterosexual transvestite looking for a safe space to crossdress in public without getting ridiculed, or physically assaulted? How can we as sex radicals deny or discriminate against something when it is safe sane and consensual? How can we ask for acceptance when we do the exact same thing we accuse the enemy of doing? Jeff failed to see a lack of tolerance from the bar. I personally think it's a classic tale of old leather guard homogeny vs. new leather guard pansexuality.

And as far as you getting groped and sexually mauled? I guess their are a few St. Louis leatherqueens with china doll fetishes. Who knew?

-Joe